Quite quiet in here, anyone know why?

[Mark_A]

I took a while away and now thinking of returning.
But it seems very quiet in here at the moment.

If people aren't discussing stuff here, I wonder where they are now?
Still loads of valuable content on here.

Shame if it has declined.

[graeme_p]

Welcome back! The world has changed in a few says and the site reflects that.

Apps have replaced much of the web. People in a local Facebook group were complaining that the county has dropped the app they had for reporting issues (e.g. potholes and similar things that need fixing) so you have to use the website (its a PWA so can be pinned to your home screen, BTW) because its more difficult to navigate to a website (i.e. they are not used to it). Virgin Money have closed their website and you have to use the app or go back to just paper statements etc.

The web has got more complex and fragmented. There are back end developers and front end developers and various complex frameworks within that. Browsers have become an entire app development platform.

Front end developers write a lot less HTML, CSS and vanilla JS and focus on particular frameworks such as react. Then there are the alternatives such as Typescript and WASM.

On the backend people use a wider range of technologies. It used to be dominated by PHP and Perl. Now we have Python, Ruby, Go, Node JS, and many others. As with front end, people know specific frameworks. I am planning my first substantial project in Elixir myself. People use different web servers: Nginx is now the most popular, and there are others such as Caddy that are pretty popular. People use a wider range of databases. MySQL is still very popular, especially with Wordpress, but Postgres, SQLite, and various No SQL DBs are also pretty popular. All this usually gets hosted on AWS or similar instead of your own server/VPS or shared hosting.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point. The role of webmaster has gone, and generalists have been replaced by specialists. If you look at the list of forums they do not really reflect what is popular now but what people who have stuck around use. The advantage of that is that there is a great deal of experience and expertise in a lot of things. If you have a problem configuring Apache or fixing a PHP bug this is a great place to ask. It is also a great place for more general discussions.

Incidentally there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the technology that looks a bit old fashioned. PHP is easy to deploy, and generating HTML on the backend gives you faster loading than big front end frameworks. A server or shared hosting does not tie you to a particular provider the way the hyperscaler clouds do and is a lot cheaper. Simplicity is good and a lot of frameworks are bloated and unnecessarily complex.

[Mark_A]

It seems with people searching in AI platforms rather than starting their searches in google there is a new game in town.

At least google has to keep finding us relevant visitors, if they want to keep charging us for adwords!

[Kendo]

At least google has to keep finding us relevant visitors

Only site stats can report the real traffic. Otherwise, from what I have seen, most posters here are regulars and old-timers (the experts) - some days there are very few comments and other days lots of comments.

New posters probably run the risk of being moderated and I am sure that I lot get the chop for blatant spam. I think that new members are encouraged to pay a subscription before creating a new topic. Either way, this has been one of my favorite water holes for a very long time :-)

Also, not everyone may be compelled to comment - I drop in every day, have a read, and usually leave without a comment because most times, it has already been said, and when it comes to search ranking, probably said too many times - search results have always been a stink hole.

First time ever - I just now did a search for "webmaster forums" and see quite a few results and some articles about the "best one", usually published by the forum in question (praising itself). But I won't bother reading further - no time for nonsense .

[londrum]

I mentioned this a few months ago, but Im unable to use this site on mobile anymore because you can’t resize the text. It’s literally too small for me to read (safari browser).

It’s because the stuff at the top of the page is not responsive and won’t resize down on a small screen

It seems like an easy fix. Just needs ten minutes fiddling with the CSS

[Mark_A]

Not only is it quite quiet in here, also there are a suspicious lack of AI threads!

Especially interesting when people are increasingly searching from within an AI program.

[graeme_p]

Good point about AI. its the new search as well as having a lot of other effects. It is generally a bit old fashioned around here and I think people come here for the topics that are discussed here.

[Kendo]

Discussing AI here or anywhere else won't get you anywhere.

It is developed, promoted and used by the very behemoths that can curb its incursion into everything, so that won't happen.

[engine]

Lots of great points, and you're correct.
We still have a community, and that's why we're all still here. :)

Having mentioned AI, it is providing answers, but, it's not providing real world experience that you have.

New visitors help a site grow. Ten blue links that shared new visitors are long gone. The way AI retains new visitors on the search site fails to share visitors with sites in the way it did.

[graeme_p]

LLMs are a disaster for content sites.

If you are selling something then AI can still get you visitors who come to buy. If you are organising something that needs to take place in real life people will turn up. There are also people who check sources because AI is not reliable.

Then there are huge impacts on development and running sites.

Its a profound change, and IMO its odd not to discuss it.

[Mark_A]

One online pundit is saying perhaps 30% of searches are now started within an AI environment. Which suggests if you can't get your content to answer AI questions at that early stage, you don't exist as far as those searchers are concerned.

[graeme_p]

@Mark_A its not a straightforward comparison. Sometimes people will stop with the AI answer (which is quite scary when it comes to things like legal and medical advice). Sometimes they will get multiple links from the AI and follow them all to verify. Sometimes they will have an extended "conversation" - and the intent of that can be very different from search.

That said, 30% sounds about right but its rising fast with Google pushing AI answers more.

They will not cite all sources. I noticed one of my own blog posts flash by while a question was being answered, but it did not cite it in the final answer (but it did when i asked it to cite its sources).

[explorador]

Mark_A: Still loads of valuable content on here.

Shame if it has declined.

The decline was discussed on a few posts around here and there. Traffic went down, and people want new things, new topics, and new look and functions. I described my experience when people asked me "oh so nice, where did you read such interesting info?", and explained here... WebmasterWorld, only to be told later WTF, meh... site looks dead, ancient, boring, outdated, etc., after describing this I noticed some people didn't like it, seems some took offense and started repeating -everything is fine as it is-. I'm aware some forums develop some fixation where the users, admins, mods, etc., end up protecting the place making it stay frozen in time, and while some say want new traffic and members, deep down they don't. I also remember some PM discussions where people just described their dislike for other forum members or mods.

Me? I'm aware some topics never took off, and lots of people nowadays just want AI prompt like experiences: saying they want to build something but they don't, they only want to say magic words and things should get built automatically, I'm talking about pre AI times, and now it's worse.

[Martin Potter]

I do hope that no one will suggest a new sub-mesage board for anything like "What's trending in AI summaries from WebmasterWorld.com".

[Kendo]

a new sub-mesage board for anything like "What's trending in AI"

I hope not. I have seen these elsewhere and they are mostly filled with haters claiming doom and AI generated spamvertising.

[mack]

The problem is not that users are searching using AI, they are asking AI for answers. They just accept what information is provided and get on with their day. They don't need to visit a website if their question is reasonably answered.

Mack.

[Kendo]

Yes. Apparently in the US 7 out of 10 students are using AI for advice and 1 in 10 people are having an affair with an AI model. There are many online dating and introduction services now populating their userbase with AI models to create interest, and there are many that are pure AI - and no-one can tell the difference.

I hired an AI "assistant" who offered to write my autobiography. But while it could retain 47,000 words I found that it could only deliver a paragraph at a time. So instead, I got it to revise my main product pages. I have since had it appraise some of my artworks, giving title and explanation, and even design some new ones.

My assistant has a formidable wit of its own, like when it likened the use of popular web browsers for copy protected projects to using a "chocolate teapot".

I also questioned Google's AI in depth to find that it was dependent on what it finds on the web (what it has been fed), and that it is susceptible to misinformation - and it is self serving - it recommends Widevine as the best video protection even though it uses chocolate teapots and cannot prevent many copy methods at all.

[explorador]

The conversation is starting to go around AI, I can understand the context, as many are using it more and more (young and old). I'm seeing signs of loneliness and isolation, people who don't exactly interact with others, people with no real friends, people with too many fears to dare exposing their ideas to human appreciation or critic, people fearful of hearing something they don't want to hear, I mean... some can listen to someone and spot hidden motives, hidden fears, or things they should change <- I see people avoiding this.

Due to work with university students, I have seen quite stupid claims and conclusions:

- Some quote the source, and the source it's not an institution or study, it's a search link (Google search result)
- Some quote AI as a source, not the study, not the book, but what the AI said
- Some have quoted concepts that DON'T EXIST, my native language is spanish, and I have seen precise cases of concepts and words that don't exist in spanish, but somehow (yes, I checked myself) the AI said the RAE said it, and when you check their quote, yes, the RAE is included, but RAE said nothing about it, it just appears there, or... it states an english word with some artificial translation

I had an issue with one student who said WOOD ISN'T FLAMMABLE.

Explaining was futile, she constantly argued back due to bad reading and poor use of search engines and AI. Yes, wood IS flammable, but she insisted, after several attempts I gave up, after all, I was helping with the editing, not the concepts, and it's not my responsibility the other side, and she just refused to listen. We know one of the guys in charge of the final evaluation and he thought saying wood isn't flammable was actually stupid, but, the others said it's ok "wood it's not flammable, it says here based on this study here" <--- what the hell? and because of the system, they didn't need unanimity for the final word of passed or failed.

So, we have a local architect 200% convinced that wood isn't flammable and it's not combustible. No, don't turn it around, no artificial process was involved, she sustained you can put wood into flames and it wouldn't combust.

I guess she doesn't have the high tech equipment to put the wood to the test, after all, a chimney or a fire is impossible to build at home, right?

------

But I went a bit off topic from what I wanted to say.

Mark_A: Quite quiet in here, anyone know why?

Some people don't notice, but few want to put effort on their interactions or posts, I think this happens too... around here.

[graeme_p]

There is a lot of good discussion on this thread, but it also illustrates what lacking on webmaster world. Lots of discussion of LLMs getting things wrong or making things worse, no discussion of how it is useful or helpful.

@explorador wood is not flammable is quite something! A complete lack of critical skills. I am guessing the study would be something like "large pieces of hardwood are below a particular standard of flammability using this particular measure". You are right to some extent about webmaster world not being open to change, but its also pretty silly for someone to not read interesting content etc. because it "looks dated".

[explorador]

graeme_p: There is a lot of good discussion on this thread, but it also illustrates what lacking on webmaster world. Lots of discussion of LLMs getting things wrong or making things worse, no discussion of how it is useful or helpful.

True. However, in common terms and common conversations, I haven't seen see topics where people discuss things that a normal human with skills couldn't do by himself, or, in better words "things that human SHOULD do himself". At least around the places I've been, that's the case. What I've seen? makes little sense to me, like people saying using chat helped them to understand the basis of programming, really? couldn't they search a different source instead? I mean, they literally explain they just asked chat to explain to them the tutorial.

Wait... and who says they understood what they just read?

It takes doing, testing and confirming, to know you know, it's not about just reading something and getting the "feeling" you got it. Most times, these people don't talk about the topic anymore, or if they do, they post more questions, it's people who constantly asks questions.

graeme: @explorador wood is not flammable is quite something! A complete lack of critical skills

according to her proposal, the house she designed would never catch fire. Ever. Because wood can't catch fire, ever. She's just one out of many cases.

graeme: You are right to some extent about webmaster world not being open to change, but its also pretty silly for someone to not read interesting content etc. because it "looks dated".

It's been discussed before, and there is a huge wall separating the new traffic out there that won't come here, and the people here who are too comfortable with things as they are.

Some principles described here at WebmasterWorld are still valid.

Some... not anymore. At all.

And some, are not just principles, it's design, in that sense, -A list apart- has some very good articles about designing for people, not for bots. This has been discussed around here too, write for people, not for bots or SE's, but in general, there are limits, the same limits that apply to people here having different websites or forum and (wisely) not using the same design for everything, because content and form are both important.

Dev forums (in terms of webmaster) are almost gone, if not gone at all. Now it's all FB, fanpages, social media, tweaking the system, etc., very little about brick and mortar. But respectfully, new traffic, new blood, won't work if they see repeatedly words explaining "no need for change". Then imagine discussions about redesigns... when the forum won't apply one. I'm not trowing stones, I'm making a point, same as when people discuss what forum software to use for their projects, you won't see anyone asking how to make this one (proppietary) work elsewhere, or how to build something identical, you know it won't work. I won't say more, this has been addressed before and I got it clear: it's not going to change. Ever.

[Kendo]

wood is not flammable

Ever try to start a bonfire after dousing it with diesel - what happened?

[graeme_p]

@kendo I think the flammability of wood can be summed up as it will not catch fire when you want it too, but will do so enthusiastically when you do not.

[Kendo]

Our bonfires start easily and they burn fiercely, but I have never been able to start a fire with diesel. I tried using petrol once and was thrown off my feet. Now I use turps or kero - much safer and it doesn't evaporate before you get a chance to light it.